Conducted by Alexander Chelminsky (Abraham’s nephew) Translation by Mr. Pablo Ramirez, George Mason University, Department of English.
ALEX: We’re here in the city of Mexico in company of my Uncle Abraham Chelminsky and Tzilla Chelminsky. And, they have agreed to give me a little bit time to ask a few questions to Uncle Abram. Well let’s begin Uncle. Where were, you born in Uncle?
ABRAHAM: I was born in the municipality of the city of Tampico called Villa Sicilia. Vega Sicilia, Tamaulipas.
ALEX: And how do you get to remote place like that?
ABRAHAM: It’s one of the odd things. This story begins I think a little bit before the arrival of my father to that area. I think there are two branches that are interesting to look over. In the first place that my father left from someplace that he told me about once he told from Poland 1920/1921, around that time, and he found in Danzig, a young man, Polish, I think called Grossman.
ALEX: They were alone?
ABRAHAM: Yes, they were alone him and his friend were alone. And, they, had this idea to go to Israel. And, they signed up or they were invited to sign up into this course to drive buses/ to drive trucks carrying loads that it was what was needed in Israel. And in the middle of the whole process his friend Grossman told or proposed the idea to my dad that he had these family members in Mexico. And, that obviously as things were very difficult economically, the situation, why didn’t they go first Mexico where there was a better economic situation? Then they could decide what to do afterwards. So, up until then is the information that I had about how he got out of Poland.
Now the big aspect of the whole Jews leaving during the situation and I’m sure you’ve already investigated a lot about the difficult economic situation is about the way that it was back then—
Well by the time my dad arrives in Mexico and when he arrives, or when they arrived to Mexico. It was the time during which the Americans had intervened in Mexico and had occupied the Port of Veracruz that was the place. It was the entry point for everything that came from Europe and from the US. And, as a substitute port, the boats started to arrive at Tampico.
Tampico wasn’t a main port like that Veracruz because the Tampico port is not on top of by the sea but inside along the Panuco River, which is a very turbulent river and not along the coast but isn’t the one next to the sea. And I think that the US occupation of Veracruz might have lasted a couple of years.
Many, many Jews from Europe across Tampico, because Veracruz was blocked at the time.
Now once they had arrived in Mexico, they began to think about the possibility of getting into United States. After checking with the authorities and completing and the investigation that they did and all the paperwork, they found out themselves in a waiting list where they’d have to wait they were put on this basically a wait list that would last about two years, until before they could get the entry papers authorization.
Conducted by Alexander Chelminsky (Abraham’s nephew) Translation by Mr. Pablo Ramirez, George Mason University, Department of English.
So, what does a person that arrives with $50 or $100 of basically capital from Europe who has to wait waiting two years, aside from working and getting to work? So, with special skills of something that they didn’t have at all, so the easiest thing to do was become a street vendor, a peddler basically, to sell clothes on the street which many said, “clothes OH!” and household tools and all kinds of things that could be sold. if you have yourHe would set up a little place in the street that, obviously, you would not need a lot of merchandise, and sell it to have to sell them that way. He starts working as a peddler and at the same time.
Curiously, as one of this strange quirks in history, foreign companies discovered and developed the extraction of oil in Mexico. which is one of those unique things in life, he started in Mexico the exploitation of petroleum than the extraction of petroleum.
So, by the time the Americans, many American companies, many companies from Holland, and British companies had started to start digging wells, especially, in the area of Tampico, Panuco and Minatitlan and , where the main extraction points petroleum were created.
But, the Americans had a method for settling system of work where they built for their employees. In this days, Mexico was a relatively primitive society in comparison. but, actually, it was the American worker who was the executive. So, they The American Companies build these gated communities with small houses where they settled their workers live there. While not necessarily “locked away” from the population, they did give segregated from the local population.
In those days the work week consisted of seven days, as labor regulations had not been put in place at the time. the workers they worked the seven days of the week at that time because they’re weren’t still regulation very clearly in place about that. For some reason, the US workers in that they weren’t allowed to leave the camp to go to the city, except for maybe like one day a week or something like that to go have fun or do whatever they wanted, I’m not sure.
And it was very hard for outsiders to enter those camps. The Americans had strict control of who was allowed to come in and out had a very well [strong] vigilance. I don’t know how he did it, but my Dad (RIP) managed, together with other Jewish friends, to get into these gated communities and sell the residents all kinds of household goods: clothes, mattresses, furniture, food, etc. So, from there, there was some improvement for him because he was one of the few that had this access.—and you know that they sold everything clothes you know and furniture, all kinds of stuff. In the process of doing that he was able to win a little bit of money. So, because of that he stayed in Tampico
I’d like to tell you about my mother and what happened to her: her grandmother’s brother came to the United States well before my father. When the First World War started, the Americans, who joined the war toward the end in 1917, began to recruit citizens to send them off to war. And, so my grandmother’s brother decided to leave the US and cross over to the Mexican side. There he got married and started a family. He also ended up in the port of Tampico. He didn’t become a peddler, but began buy and sell scrap iron to be smelted again.
This man still had a sister in Russia, who was married to a Jew from the Ukraine, called Grichewsky. My grandmother’s brother helped him come to the US with his wife and daughter to see if he could start a life here as well. The brother-in-law, sister and niece, arrived in the US a few moths before the War began. However, life in the US didn’t sit well with him, probably because he felt he had a better life in the Ukraine. So he decided to take a boat back to Russia. He left America but never arrived back in the Ukraine. He simply disappeared, thus leaving his wife as an Agunah, unable to remarry unless the husband’s body could be produced, which they couldn’t.
This created a very unique situation: the wife of this man who brought this family from the Ukraine wasn’t Jewish, he was a Goy. This wife suspected that his sister who had arrived with a young girl (a little bit older, actually) was actually the wife of this gentleman, who had left them in Russia and was now bringing her back, not an unusual practice in those days. The daughter was already around 15 – 16 years old, met my father and married him. And, they stayed to live in Tampico. This young girl was my mother, Sonia Grichewsky Chelminsky.
His first two children were born in Tampico. That’s when my father, who already had been working there for many years, wanted to find a broader Jewish community. The only place was in Mexico City. And so, they moved to Mexico City.
ALEX: Do you remember the year?
ABRHAHAM: I don’t remember the year.
TZILA (to ABRAHAM): You forgot the part about Rosita. About your grandfather with Rosita…
ABRHAHAM: Oh yeah.
ALEX: So, you say that you were born, then—
ABRHAM: So, it was first my older sister Esther and then it was me.
ALEX: So, you two are the only ones who were born in Tampico or in the Tampico area.
ABRAHAM: Yes, in that time, yes.
ALEX: No worries. So, you were saying about-
ABRAHAM: So, as a consequence of that situation, that was created in the family. Mr. Rajewski–They look for when my mother got married they look for a way to do a shidduch to the grandmother (the mother of my mother). By that time, the way of getting merchandise or other things to Mexico the Jews went to the border and they bought those things there and then brought it back here. And one of the situations, in a city called Fodewa and very close to the border IN the United States there was a shidduch for the lady ( my grandmother ) with an American Jew. And she married him. So, we didn’t really move.
My parents put themselves in charge of the third son and it turned out that my grandmother told my mother that she was going to have family in the United States now. So, my mother traveled to United States to be with her mother, even though she was already a grown woman. And, my mother she was already pregnant with a child. And so, it happened that she arrived at this town Fordewa and my grandmother gave birth first and then, well, after a few more weeks, my mother also gave birth in the United States. So, Rosita was actually born in the United States and I am older than my uncle who was born in the US as well. I’m older than my uncle who was born in the United States
ALEX: So, you mean that Aunt Sonia only has one step brother; only had one step brother. Sonia is the single daughter of the original marriage.
ABRAHAM: Yes, she originally had a brother in Russia who died before they left Russia.
ALEX: Do you know how?
ABRAHAM: Just sickness.
ALEX: Because there was a war right?
ABRAHAM: Yes, probably died of measles at 6 years old.
ALEX: Oh yes, that’s right. So, he died as a child that’s right. At that time, they already started pogroms in Russia because my mom had a very unique situation she explained that the fact that she was of lighter skin and blue eyes the Ukrainian population apparently allowed her during the days of the pogrom to actually stay in the streets and bring food to the house because they identified her as non-Jew.
ALEX: And do you have any memories of Tampico and you remember the house, the streets?
ABRAHAM: I was much younger in the House of the time because I don’t really remember much from that time because after what happened was that my father moved to Mexico City.
ALEX: Alone?
ABRAHAM: No with all the family. It was with his 3 kids and because he achieved/can start with all that money. and he thought that going to Mexico[City] with a larger Jewish community because there wasn’t one in Tampico.
ALEX: You don’t know how many years and how old you were when you left?
ABRAHAM: I think probably 3 or 4 years.
ALEX: So, that was before your father’s brothers arrived?
ABRAHAM: It was before they arrived.
ALEX: Because my father arrived in the thirties in the beginning of the (19)30’s. So, you would have arrived around 1930?
ABRAHAM: Well yeah but the situation is my father left with all the family to go to Mexico [City] and in Mexico[City] I remember; he lived with us for about a season.
And, your grandfather I think must have arrived earlier. He arrived earlier, but alone, and, he traveled through the Republic through, through Oaxaca.
ALEX: And, what year did he arrive?
ABRAHAM: I think 1930/1931.
ALEX: So, we must have arrived before him. I think they arrived at the same time.
ABRAHAM: No, no, no I remember he was a young boy of about 18 years.
ALEX: So they lived in Minatitlan also?.
ABRAHAM: Yes, we stayed in Mexico [City] I think for about four or five years. My father made a lot of businesses there, because it was for him. The goal was to return to Tampico to set up a business again in Mexico, after having lost what he brought it was always so much harder to start. For him it was easier to return to Tampico with the business and just earn more capital.
So, we returned to Tampico and when we returned, I started to go to school, a public school.
ALEX: There must been a few families, right?
ABRAHAM: I think. When we returned, I was a bit older and I can remember that, yep, there are actual few families. There was a Lanna family of many brothers. There was a family Mishne that also moved around. There’s a family Cella that still made it to Mexico.
ALEX: And you were saying that you return to Tampico.
ABRAHAM: Yeah we returned to Tampico and that there were other families: Buchella; Ogasland; Lomanni; Rasnic, Americhanski. There were 8 to 10 families around. But,they didn’t really live close to each other. They lived very separated. The Americhanski for example had this kind of iron gate place outside the city. Chellug also had a place a little bit more towards the edges of the city. Vishne weren’t as close to the city they were a little bit more religious. Verland at all so they had a lot of brothers.
And, I remember a little better, you know, my youth for example of that at the time, in which we lived in one building. Modern, relatively modern and it was your typical Jewish family and the zone.
ALEX: So, what do you speak at home.
ABRAHAM: So, the parents tried to speak to us in Yiddish, but we spoke Spanish.
ALEX: Were you aware of being different you are Mexican but do you know that you were a little bit more different than the other Mexican people?
ABRAHAM: Yes, and actually in that aspect I think the Jews themselves had a little bit of fear knowing that Mexico was a Catholic country. And, that it was Catholic but it wasn’t fanatical, exactly right.They knew Jews as Polish or Russian. I can remember that Tampico someone would have looked at me.
ALEX: So, you said that there was awareness of it being Catholic country?
ABRAHAM: Yes, but they didn’t know of us as Jewish for example.
ALEX: So that way you were respected you had your own life.
ABRAHAM: Yeah, it was a very simple life. So yes.
ALEX: But do you remember any Pesach? Your father fasting on Yom Kippur? Did you remember any of that which would think “this is what we do because we are different”? Did you ever see your dad like– Is there anything specific special Friday night? So there wasn’t…
ABRAHAM: They had they had a certain kaddishim in the sense of, there was no pig at home and all that. And my mother for example took off the heads of the chickens. There was no Rabbi at the time. You know eating chicken and certain vegetables. Our diet was mostly fish or chicken or vegetables. There’s not really any sophisticated meals. And we’re still small enough group at home. I don’t even remember if there is a mezuzah at the door of the house. I don’t even think there was one there.
There was no insistence on having a differentiation. Again, if you know they knew was that Polish or Jewish. They knew my family, actually as Polish. For me maybe call me the Polish man; they didn’t call me Jewish. And I went to school and it was a goi school. I was the only boy in the school. The schools were very. You know leaving the revolution all these things. The, were really filled up with a lot of student. The government wanted everyone to learn at the time. Classes, that you know, should have theoretically had 30 people there were about 80 or 90 students.
ALEX: In an in an elementary school?
ABRAHAM: Yes, in elementary school. Yes, because you know they didn’t turn away anyone. The classrooms there were those seats where you know two students could sit So in 3 to 4 people sat down in that seat. In the hallways those of us that… Even if you can’t write anyone who arrives at the beginning of the year and showed where they were sitting yeah that was his place for the whole year. Those of us who didn’t make it in time we had to bring two boxes one to sit down on and one to write on. You know our teachers. They wrote the lessons on the board. And, as soon as we copied it in our booklets. Because there was no other system. [27:00:00]
ALEX: And how long did that last?
ABRAHAM: How long did that last? We stayed in Tampico until I was 12 years old. I think 12 years old, so..
ALEX: So, the war was about to begin when you left Mexico? Because it was in (19)38. You were 12 years old so then from (19)26 to 1938.
ABRAHAM: Yes correct.
ALEX: So, Europe was about to blow. Yeah, we didn’t really but yeah we didn’t really get any news when I was 12 years old the problem wasn’t me, but you know for my sister. I had four sisters. They were already born in Tampico. I was born in Mexico. So, there’s always this worthy from the Jewish parents that the children were getting close to that age of getting married. So, they decided to once again go back to Mexico. And to go back so obviously there was a problem at that point because.. It was very interesting you know the whole situation that the school system in Tampico ended in the month of June or July, which was like the American system and in Mexico in the city of Mexico, the school system ended at the very end of the year. So, my parents had to make the decision, that while my mother left Mexico with her [my] sisters I would stay in Tampico with my father to finish the first [6th] grade to finish Elementary School and give my dad an opportunity so that he could get rid of all of the merchandise that he had and that he was working with. [20:00:00/30:00:00].
ALEX: So, by that point your brothers had already arrived your sisters had already arrived or at least your brother David and your brother Abraham.
ABRAHAM: Yeah, I remember I saw David had arrived. And almost immediately he’d left Atalla to work on something that wood making and even he took Abraham with him Atalla. But, there was not any contact with the distance was too far away. [30:30:00]
But what I meant was that I was being in Mexico. Your dad came to Mexico to a school Williams. And your dad. It was. I think we were going to pick him up once a week or every two weeks so that he was in the city or he could be in the city. And, Williams was also in Mexico City but I was more far away. Right we were closer to the Hippodrome, for example when we were right there. Not the same house, we were changing houses but that’s where I met your dad. But, we didn’t have an opportunity to form a friendship, because we were too small, and we only met during the weekends. [32:00:00]
ALEX: So, where were you with at the time Uncle? When you finished your first [6th grade] grade, or when you finished elementary. Where did you go?.
ABRAHAM: So, when I finish Elementary we arrived to Mexico. And I think how is in signed up in scuola “ibish”? that already exist. And so I started in the Israeli School for my secondary. Of course, like when I got there to Mexico I got there 6 months before the school cycle ended. Somebody remembered that I was going to I will be 6 grade even though I already finished it in the Israeli school I went first 6 months–
ALEX: So, you did 6th grade again? So, you became an expert in 6th grade? [laughing!]
ABRAHAM: Yes, in the second part of sixth grade at that.
ALEX: So, that was the first time that you heard others speaking Yiddish, and that you would have met other parents are very similar to yours? [33:00:00]
ABRAHAM: Yiddish was spoken a little bit at home because they spoke Yiddish between themselves; my parents. Sometimes they spoke to us like that, but we didn’t speak Yiddish. We understood a little bit of what was being spoken, but we didn’t really have conscience of what was going on until I arrived to the school. It was the Israeli school with lessons also in Spanish and they were about one or two hours every day with Yiddish. And,there was history and other things but until then. I then did all of my of secondary time in that school. Right. [34:00:00]
So, Europe was going through the second world war at the time. And I am sure history must have arrived. Yeah there’s a lot of news about it and people were talking about it a lot. Well there were you know a few shorts (films) that arrived during the war from Europe that showed that– what they were doing to the Jewish communities. But we didn’t know the breadth of the disaster that afterwards found out happened. But, we did hear about that Communities suffering a lot because the War was happening in all the towns; Poland and Russia all these places.
ALEX: Many of your classmates had family members there, their parents or brothers. [34:30:00]
ABRAHAM: Yeah and even the time we had the famous aspects of educating the armies the Jewish population so they suffered less than all that but no I don’t really remember much of that, or at least there was a lot of clear information about what was going on in the disaster of Europe. Obviously, there were people…. My dad told me that the majority of the newspapers, and not all of them, were subsided {?subsdized?]or financed by the Nazi party and that it wasn’t odd to see articles that were anti-Semitic, or that reduced the impact of what was going on. He told me that there is evidence that the Jewish Community many times paid Chroniclers to kind of ameliorate their stories or that they wrote articles that were a little more honest. [35:30:00]
I didn’t really have any knowledge of that situation. I really wasn’t shocked. Well, I mean the Nazis you know more than influence that their sympathy in the town. As a as a kind of Liberation movement or something like that you know most of the Revolution. You know my son left from the Mexican Revolution with an impact that were very impacting as the number of death at there were that the country you know that it was amazing numbers. The material destruction that there was in the country with the revolution that lasted many years. [36:30:00]
There might have been the Germans or the sympathizers of the Germans might have kind of turned the press one way or another. But, I wasn’t aware of that situation. All that I remember is that was a famous house “boket” of wood workers here in the city immediately the Mexican government declared war against the Germans and started taking a look at all the Germans that lived in Mexico. And so, those ones, they were taken to a prisoner of war camp in Mexico. [37:00:00]
But it might have been that they had economic good economic positions- the Germans. And it might have been that they had an influence in the press. You know when you are I know right about Christianity or whatever is that you know it was they always look for a way of to justify everything that happened against the Jews the way they killed them that the way they killed Christ and all the stories and everything and if you ask any Mexican you know they’ll say the exact same thing. And the only t news story that I remember hearing but that had happened in some little town in Mexico. There was some kind of like manifestation or rally or something against the Jews. There was a lady sitting on the porch of her house and some of her neighbors didn’t know what it meant to be Jewish or didn’t know what it meant for Judaism. One of the ladies that was sitting there you know asked her for those Jews. And so she said, “well Christ was Jewish” and I think that instead of explaining what it meant that it actually muddled her up a lot more. [37:300:00-39:00;00]
ALEX: So, at the end of (19)45 when the gravity of what is happening came to light you were already working at the time?
ABRAHAM: Yes, I finished. When did I finish? (19)44 I think (19) 44/45 was when I finished. When I graduated in (19)45. And school you know, I’ll tell you at the time that I studied, well maybe because I was different, I studied after I left Secondary School. My dad- he really hadn’t been able to become economically kind of sustainable. He had his little business but he was you know what business with somebody who made shoes. [40:00:00]
ALEX: Didn’t he work with clothes?
ABRAHAM: No. That was only the first time that he arrived. But you know what happened? In 1939, I think it was (19) 39 my grandparents arrived from Poland.
ALEX: So, they arrived with Estera?
ABRAHAM: Yes, and with the family of Estera. [40:00:00]
ALEX: So, they left at the end wouldn’t when the war had begun. [40:30:00]
ABRAHAM: No. You don’t know the story of your grandfather?? The grandfather Chelminsky, the rabbi, he came from this town [Klodawa]. One week before the Nazis invaded Poland he woke up one day and morning and said “I dreamt that everything is burning. We have to leave this place. We have to leave immediately!” And he said you know everyone you know the house. You know and the business end and everything that we have here right what they owe us and he said “no we have to go, it’s over. We have to leave”. [41:00:00
There’s an interesting point to that is the grandfather Chelminski was a Hassid. Right? So, he was actually a Hasidic Jew. And amongst them- you know- it was so usual to build your community around a rabbi. Very important decisions in their lives, in their work and their kind of well-being family situations weren’t taken if you didn’t first speak to the to the rabbi of the group. [42:00:00}
That time the grandfather didn’t go to speak to the rabbi. He said, “We have to go now”. And he sent his son-in-law to Warsaw, to the HIAS to this get the the visas to get out of Europe (passports). And so, the Chelminski brothers that went to Mexico sent documentation to the rabbi to bring him over. And, they left everything.
Conducted by Alexander Chelminsky (Abraham’s nephew) Translation by Mr. Pablo Ramirez, George Mason University, Department of English.
ALEX: Sorry. so, you said the son-in-law. Do you mean the Gia Stempa? Yes, Gia Stempa, and Aunt Estera Sieve , they lived with the grandparents and they were the only ones left of the siblings.
ABRAHAM: No! The grandfather had 7 siblings. One of them was the Charleton that passed away. Yeah, Chelminski originally and he had also six other siblings who are rabbis that were spread around the community around there of rabbis. So, the Grandfather said, “we have to leave; we have to leave”. And you know they ran one way; they run the other way. They got the last boat that was leaving from Poland to England. [43:00:00]
ALEX: Danzig? [43:30:00]
ABRAHAM: Well they got there to France.
ALEX: But, how did they arrive from Europe? Because they were in Poland.
ABRAHAM: So, I know the story. They arrived in France by the time that the Germans had invaded Poland.
They arrived in the last boat. And they got his other boat trying to get to Mexico and they got off in England where Uncle Charleton was. And, he wasn’t able to help them out. So, they got back to France and they got the last boat that arrived to Mexico. Yeah Aunt Associa with her husband Martha and Allencito. Alencito was a little sixt or eight month old child. Yeah- he was in their arms and they arrived to Mexico.
ALEX: And, do you know where they got it [the boat] from?
ABRAHAM: No, I don’t know what port, but I know it was France, because that, I was told by— [44:30:00]
ALEX: They were stuck there for a few months-right?
ABRAHAM: Yes, so the whole Stempa family and the rabbi, and the grandmother was there you. They were all stuck there waiting for a boat. And I think the kids sent them to you know have something to live with, because they were there for a few months until finally they left to Mexico, arrived in Vera Cruz, and there is where they want to pick up the siblings.
Bar mitzva in 1938 in December -right in December (19)39 and we saw the newspaper cuttings about the Bar mitzva from Abraham- Where the Jewish press you know when they said: They have. And even then Klodova still appeared because they didn’t know where they were yet. So, this is at the end of 1939. Where the newspaper cutting didn’t know where they were if they were already on the way, if they were in France that they were lost. [46:00:00]
ALEX: And we don’t have any paper cutting?
ABRAHAM: I have it somewhere and it’ll pop up somewhere. Yeah- I think one of our teachers she was studying the Holocaust saw the press in Mexico saw the little cut out of Abraham’s Bar Mitzva and we found a little detail that when they’re talking with the grandparents it still appears with the town of Klodava. And they weren’t there anymore. It was very sudden. I don’t even think I in Mexico that they really knew what was going on. I think that they found out when they were already in England.
ALEX: So, they did not they pass through Cuba? Because many did.
ABRHAHAM: No-they didn’t pass through Cuba, or at least that I know they did not pass through Cuba. I know my other grandparents passed through Cuba and they spent some time there as well. [
ALEX: Because even in Mexico, it wasn’t easy to get there right?
ABRAHAM: They may have been lucky but… It was also like the same thing with the Nazis right, like there were anti-Semitic groups that would try make their lives Hell they’re right. They weren’t very successful but they work. I’ll find a newspaper cutting because I was somewhere.
Yeah so that’s how they left the house abandoned. I later, afterwards heard that the Poles you kind of got to the house and they said you know where we were going to sell it to? And it was week, ten days before leaving. So, who’s going to want to buy a house like that from them?
Uncle Arcerpa, you know, he had a little I candy shop for like sweets in another town. And my father when he arrived in Klodawa , he found the documents that talk about selling of the house and it appears that there was a Chelminski there who died in the Holocaust. And people who wanted the house, paid this kind of bribe to the titles of the City to make sure that the person who they had bought it from who was already dead and there will be no way of getting it back!
So, the name is there I’d remember the name but he told me about it and actually my dad afterwards tried to look for and yeah that member that member of the family died two years before he sold the house. Sorry- two years after he died with that they assured that the house would not be taken away from them. And that’s how that ended up in the house obviously. [48:00:00]
ALEX: Do you know how they lived? How your grandparents lived? And, he was a rabbi in Mexico right? No, he was in Poland I mean.
ABRAHAM: It appears that they had this little house. That had this kind of like a garden in the back and so I think that it was a lot of examples of how the Jews survived economically.
Your grandfather and others like your grandfather the farm people of Poland who kind of grew things in their fields they had after a while they didn’t have any money right to continue subsisting so they only had money to be able to ride over there and get to the fields. And I think with that Jews did then is they would buy part of the wheat they grew; around 50 tons 100 tons of wheat. They pay up-front; 3 times six times, before the harvest was there. and was so when the harvest was in, the Polish person would hand over whatever they gotten in because the grandfather lived from the sale of the wheat, but up front. That’s why they had the windmill [gristmill] Right- now that’s why they were in kind of Windmill [gristmill] business. They didn’t have a windmill [gristmill], but the Uncle David at a point did have. Yep. The grandparents they sold the wheat because people, people you know had wheat when they needed it. But there were no stores for wheat. So a Polish person into town- you know when they need like 3 kilos; like 3 kilos 10 kilos of wheat; or flour (sorry) he would buy it from the Jews; the wheat itself take it to the windmill[gristmill] and then he’d have flour to survive for all the things that he’d need for the month.
ALEX: Do you have any memories from your grandfather? Because, you only lived there for a short while in Mexico; right?
ABRAHAM: Your father and I have a lot of memories of that situation, when the grandparents arrived in Mexico.
After everything; needed to find a rabbi and so they found in Argentina [STREET?] in a home, because the Jews in the beginning lived in the center of the town. Yeah that’s it is it. All of them, because it was a place where you could do all of your business. So, for the grandfather they found him; found him a little kind of like place to live. And near the street where they lived there was a small synagogue that was called… How does it called? Oh, “Jesus Mary”? No, I forgot the name. [something in Hebrew]. In the street yeah I would remember the street, is it the same one that afterwards was turned into Monte Zera ? So, the grandfather did not have a Rabbi. So, when he arrived and they found out that he’s a rabbi and they gave him the job as a rabbi. “atachim?”
And the other that the Abraham and so he stayed there you know working there and then went back to where he was living. Now, what did we do right? Our parents know the Cheminski’s sent us here to study with the grandfather. So, they sent us to study with the grandfather. The problem with that is that is we spoke so little Yiddish and my grandfather wanted to study the Talmud in Hebrew.
The problem was that every week; you know- one week me- one week your dad- we would arrive to the to the academy in this kind of truck where it still exists Klodava. Those were the only ones. So, I would bring it I would bring him in a truck. At the time they’re still cars everything.
I arrived to my house to eat and I came back to pick up the grandfather and took him back on Friday to his house to get ready get dressed and then he went to the Schupla over a Santa Domingos. I would then get there one week and your father to get there another week. And,so the poor old man! In one of those situations the water wasn’t working too well, too hot or something happened. So, he got pneumonia and then died afterwards from that, like the Monday afterwards! Like a fake, like a fictional story! So, come back from Europe. Yeah, they told me they’re like a novel!
But did your father not tell about that? Take him to this place and then come back. Because, I remember I visited the tomb when I was there one time but I think the date was 1941 or something like that. So, he wasn’t even here a whole year. Oh- He was here more than you because I knew people that told me that me know when I was a child when I was a child a member of Rabbi Chelminsky, so people didn’t know about him even though he was only here officially for a short time. Yeah they were respected him a lot. He was known as rabbi of the Valencia because that whole group that had the temple there.
ALEX: So, you helped to build that temple right?
ABRAHAM: Yes, and the same group–You know that Jews moved to the residential zones but. But you know, before that Klodawa and all these other places Rome right like all these other places right. Few of those actually left the center and you know when I took the grandfather back to his house to in Argentina [street]. right. [56}
I think there was. I think that was the time when. Yeah, I started undergrad and grad.
ALEX: So, you studied in that didn’t wasn’t in the in the…
ABRAHAM: I studied in Alphonso.
So was preparing the national prep school. Yeah there’s only one.
ALEX: There wasn’t one of those for the Jewish Community right?
ABRHAM: What school?
ALEX: They Yiddish school. So, it was the first Jewish Elementary School. It was the first generation.
ABRAHAM: I studied and I begin studying during that time when I was there in the center. there the day started at around 6 p.m. and we stayed about 11. We had to run to;we had to run to Medea?.
ALEX: And what street did you live in?
ABRHAHAM: I lived in
ALEX: Cornago?
ABRAHAM: No.
ALEX: Anisco:
ABRAHAM: No, no, no. The one in front. It went out over to where the original American school was. Sonora. [57:30:00]
ALEX: So, where Mexico Park? So, near Amsterdam. Gotcha, yes.
ABRHAHAM: It was where we lived.
ALEX: Because, when I met your dad you lived in the buildings in Guanoga.
ABRAHAM: That was much afterward. When I finished all of high school I went to live there.
ALEX: So, you had Jewish classmates in the University?
ABRAHAM: Back then in high school, no.
ALEX: And, in University?
ABRHAMAH: The only one that I had the same time as me and I’m in high school was the cousin of Rabi Raphere.
ALEX: Chumlee showed me a photo of you next to Michaels overski and Mr. Medamed.[58:00:00]
ABRHAHAM: No, I wasn’t in their class. After we did two years of prep school, of high school, we started studying engineering and it was a civil school. There is one more person there Barras, he was called, that studied also in that same school. Because, at that time people needed to find a way to kind of survive they studied only in the morning from 8 to 9; more or less. You know during their first class for example in the second year we already studied only one hour in the morning because most of the men left to work afterwards. I worked in the in the offices of the Public Works. My thesis to be an engineer I did on a special bridge. So, we studied and we worked in front of the…
ALEX: How long did it last? 4 years?
ABRAHAM: 5 years?
ALEX: 5 years to get that title?
ABRAHAM: It years was 3 years in high school. Back then we studied from 6 to 11 or noon. And that killed me! And we had one class from… but it was… you had to arrive from the colony 8 to 9. And you know my dad at the time had this place; this felt store for shoes called his Jesus Coranza over by the Argentina Street. So, I’d leave from high school in the morning, to his store over there. And many times, not all times, but many times I opened up the shop because, because my dad left earlier than I did from home. And they went to the places outside the city. It was all these places where they would can paint the skins of goat skin of a cow. And they would look for… You know they had like..They would paint the pieces 5 different colors and they sell them. And at the end of it all you’d have these red and green and black pieces and so by that point, they, were ready to hand out and sell. And you can win a little bit of money like that so they would buy from the store.
Because we were in Topito, (Tompico) but it was that it was all that area. The shoemakers who lived in that area weren’t shoemakers who made thousands of shoes; they made 10 dozen maybe a few dozen; like five dozen. But, for all of them, they weren’t buying a hundred skins they’ve got maybe 2 or 3 of one color, 2 or 3 of another, so they were able to win a little money to make the specific shoes. [62:30:00]
But, the most interesting part was to ask for them; they said that all of the stores in Topito– which wasn’t even like a place where they worked- they were just like in a room in somebody’s house or they were working on the shoes that was it; it wasn’t really a factory. The people from Topito were decent people. The bandits arrived much afterwards. But later they took everything over there and just tore it down.
ALEX: So, at that point you already have like a degree. So how did you meet Aunt Tzilla?
ABRAHAM: The horrible things that happened to you in life [he laughs]. In a dance.
ALEX: In a community dance?
ABRAHAM: Yes, in a wedding. And I’ll tell you from who it was it; it was Rachel Friedman. But I was 28 years old at the time. For me it was…
ALEX: At 28 years old you were already an engineer. Look I know that from a young age so many buildings that took your name
ABRAHAM: Well OUR name!
ALEX: Well our name, but it had your initials. And there wasn’t a person that I could tell them that I was “Chelminsky” and they wouldn’t immediately say, “Ah, you’re he engineer’s son”. And, I would say, “No,
sorry to correct you”. But, your name appeared everywhere.
ABRAHAM: It was a lot of work.
ALEX: I know about like movie theaters and government buildings, and buildings over in the colonies, and these really tall buildings; some of them the tallest in Latin America at one point. Was it true that; I don’t know if it’s true or not but the story of the Jewish engineers in your home, but I’m sure yours is one of the most successful.
ABRAHAM: Look when I finished school, in reality, in total, it was in the Jewish sector; I think probably 3 or 4 engineers. And we know it was Ranowski, Rosenten, Carrasek-who I think left to America, there was Avi. And, we basically gave out the work between each other; all of us.
ALEX: It wasn’t Ari Gosinski?
ABRAHAM: No,no,no. Gosinski came many years later.
ALEX: I think he built our house in Montezicero?
ABRAHAM: There was a Mr. Gosinksi who lived on Mexicali Street.
ALEX: Wasn’t there a Gosinsky in Israel? They were not engineers, I know.
But, are they family members?
ABRAHAM: I think there was. But in that time the Jews. They have already managed to reach a certain economic position. They already had some money but they were earning not just in the Ashkenazi Community, but in the colonies; Hadave, Serra Veron. When I left to the streets, after about a year or two difficult years, there’s a great interest in the construction in the Colony. A lot of work!
ALEX: So, you were in the right time at the right place now.
ABRAHAM: Yes, almost 300-400 Works in Mexico.
ALEX: Wow I don’t think I’ve ever met an engineer who could say something like that! [67:00:00]
ABRAHAM: Yeah it was madness! It was madness because, obviously, you know they were not all amazing works but still, to hundreds works. There were like houses, few small buildings. And then afterwards you know they started making office buildings. There might even be like 8 floors,5 floors in the buildings and we made them in the center; in the in the Paraguay Street. The Jews wake up on the 20th of November, they already have money in Rome in The Colony. Then they started making buildings with 10 or 12 apartments. You know it was after that we started getting more serious kind of projects because you will have a lot more money of course and you had a lot more pedigree your name, right?
There’s a certain “Mr. Cinema”, I don’t know if you’ve heard about him, and this gentleman, he started this thing called “L’agua des Coco” in Mexico. They, got into this really bad place; the water was almost at the level of the of the of the of the ground; very, very high levels. And one day I get a call from the gentleman. He knew the family. He said, I want to build a cinema in The Colony. He bought this tract of land. He got it notified and he had all the prerequisites. And, people would come a few blocks away and he already had a place to live. There wasn’t any pavement on the streets. It was all kind of ready to go.
He sold his property, and he finally decided he wanted to make a cinema. And I never disagree with my client so I said, “sure how much?”. He said, “As long as it doesn’t cost too much.” “How many seats?” “X amount of seats”. It was a very economic project; actually to the point where it didn’t even have roof or a ceiling. He said, “with a hangar”. “A hangar he said, “yes of course.” With minimum decoration, with
minimal everything. And, he was very happy. The opening lobby, there was no actual regulations so in the entrance there’s this mirror that had to be painted; it was a mosaic. He asked for this mosaic. He found some artists or something because he knows he wants to do everything economically. So because I made it, and I fix the seats, I did all the things there for him. And he wrote you know in Hebrew.
ALEX: laughing [ what was written in Hebrew???”]
ABRAHAM: So, much afterwards; one time I saw him and asked him, “so how is the cinema going?” And he said. “Fantastic!” And I said. “Is it pretty filled up?” I remembered that it was a thousand seats. And he said “I have about 3000 people in there!” And I say, “What, how does that work?” He said, “First, in every seat I seat two people. And then in the hallways, that were built for regulations, for emergency exits it’s all filled up with seats.”
So, you know what three thousand people sitting where there were only a thousand seats he found a way to make it work. So, that same place in Tex-Coco you know he had all about of 2500 seats. And, I asked him, he told me once he got five thousand people to sit there!
ALEX: Uncle and I know that there’s a place in which you were already kind of established. And you were very involved with the community with ambassadors, members of the parties in Israel; community type things. It was practically a leadership role.
ABRAHAM: Yes, that was. After we got married. The family of the Chelminsky, they weren’t in those days, but her family, weren’t in those things but her family, they very active in society, and the political movements. And there were many, many Jews that you know they wanted to work on the schools. We decided to spend our time on that because.. We started working at the schools and so, we begin.. It was a very good amount of projects. [73:00:00-
ALEX: What year was that? That was the sixties, early seventies late 70s right? So, could I go back a little bit. Think about, any memory of when the state of Israel was created? How did the community react, where you were at?
ABRAHAM: That’s a good question. When we got married, we went for a honeymoon in Israel. [74:00:00]
ALEX: What year was that?
ABRAHAM:(19)55. So, the country was still pretty young in (19)55.I think my aunt was still there [where?] in Mejila? Aunt Mejila? I think she went in (19)54/55. There was a lot of Mexicans who went that time. Yes, there’s a group of Mexicans created; it was a kibbutz of “mapalia”
ALEX: They were Communists, right?
ABRAHAM: No, Mapun were not Communists. You should ask your Dad.
ALEX: He told me that there was a discussion.
ABRAHAM: They were Leftists not communists; extremely left.
ALEX: No, but he was talking to me about–there was a debate between if the Mapun should join the Mexican Communist Party. So, there was a wing that was Pro Soviets in all of this.
ABRAHAM: Oh yeah, during the war, you know, immediately there was a group within the Jewish community that was called “Friends of the of the Soviet Union”, or something like that. It was called “The Pro-Soviet Union League”. I don’t know if I’m allowed to say it but, in the years during the war the Soviet Union tried to get the help of worldwide Judaism. They sent Michuelis, who is the person in charge of the theatre and the writer in the US and all the Americas of the support of the Jews in the war against Fascism. And they arrived in Mexico as well.
They arrived to Mexico and there was no relation in Mexico and Russia so they had to get visas. In an article about/between the United States.
I remember when they arrived in Mexico. I remember as a little girl (WHO IS TALKING???) when they arrive to school. And, in that moment, we saw the league to help the Soviet Union during the war. Then after the war, in that time, they enter into every party; no, left, no right it was just the fight against Fascism. There were Zionists, Communists. All of them were in the League. When the war ends and the Communist problem came
ALEX: So, you’re talking about the second world war?
ABRAHAM: Yes, the second world war. When the war ends, the League it was called the “Popular League”. And, at that time, it no longer was Zionist. It was now really Leftist; that’s where my uncle was. Right from my uncle Boris newspaper. There was a leftist newspaper and my uncle was working there.
ALEX: And, I think they had an anti-Israel tendency, didn’t they?
ABRAHAM: Not anti-Israel, but not pro-Israel either.
ALEX: So, they kept in the Communist route. I see.
ABRAHAM: I tell you that for the detail of which you were talking about, yes. In the League, everyone was there at the beginning; Communists, Zionists, everyone, because it was the fight again Nazism. [77:30:00-78:00:00]
Inside that(?), when we got married and we arrived to Israel, we got excited over a country. And almost we’d thought of going back to Mexico and start kind of fixing our affairs. Well, I think it’s just a spark in every Jew to try to maintain…
ALEX: Okay, so you arrive in Israel. You fell in love with the country.
ABRAHAM: And, we thought that it was the perfect place to raise a family.
ALEX: You still didn’t have a family then.
ABRAHAM: We went back 8 times before immigrating.
ALEX: So, you arrived Israel in 1970, and so between a (19)55 and (19)70 you went eight times! So, you managed to be there two years.
ABRAHAM: Yeah, we were very excited about the country. In the first visit we found a very problematic country, because, you know, we were seeing everyone kind of arrive there. And, the movement that was also, with the situation of you know the Arab countries getting kind of amity with the Jewish partners. So, we had immigration from Egypt and Iraq and all these other countries. We didn’t even have a possibility to absolve that mass of people. The US helped a lot. The Jews of the world also helped. There were [were not???] many visitors 1955.
ALEX: I can imagine!
ABRAHAM: Because, Europe was defeated; there was no money. The American communities they didn’t really have that much money. People that were leaving right then after the Depression.
ALEX: Had the hotel opened up yet? It was new, wasn’t it, in (19)55? So, you felt that the country was still defining itself?
ABRAHAM: Yeah, we had the [TZINA??] There was no food; not even in the hotels. Now the tourists, we had rights of certain to things that the Jews didn’t have. So, like chicken, and there was no meat, either. There were the vegetables, eggs; all rationed. Yeah, they imported a lot of food from the United States. There were rationing cards, I remembered, that the Israelis had. In that way, because we were tourists, we had more than what any Israeli had at the time.
ALEX: But, in the hotel you can eat whatever you wanted, right?
ABRAHAM: Right there was chicken. Chicken was what they gave us. And you could see that the people who you find in the same hotel there, were people who just arrived a few months ago. And, they didn’t speak any Hebrew, so it was a very unique thing.
ALEX: Did you hear a lot of Yiddish in the 50’s, or just a little bit?
ABRAHAM: Yeah, my sister was studying in the seminar in Jerusalem in (19)55.
ALEX: And, was Marta already there?
ABRAHAM: Yeah, he [SHE?] was in the kibbutz.
ALEX: So, in 1955, how do you arrive? In a boat? In a plane?
ABRAHAM: From Mexico in a plane. Mexico to New York. New York New to Amsterdam. Amsterdam to Munich. Munich to Frankfurt. Frankfurt to something else. Then from there we arrived in Israel. I remember my grandparents, they arrive in (19)62/64. When my grandparents, Chelminsky when he left the kibbutz. My grandparents left to Tel Aviv.
ALEX: So, they arrived in a boat, right?
ABRAHAM: Yes, because they wanted to be there to stay.
ALEX: And, yeah, I remember in New York, didn’t they take a boat?
ABRAHAM: Yeah, my sibling, she took a boat to arrive there.
ALEX: And you arrived there in a plane, right?
ABRAHAM: Yes. When we arrived to stay there.
ALEX: I think the uncle with the aunt had come back, right?
ABRAHAM: Yeah, they came back.
ALEX: They only stayed there for two, right? They came back in (19)66.
ABRAHAM: No, I don’t think she adapted.
ALEX: After that your Uncle David returned, right?
ABRAHAM: Right. He returned when my grandfather died.
ALEX: In the sixties and seventies right? (19)70/78 Right?
ABRAHAM: Yes, it was the time when all the kibbutz started to produce; to kind of help out. They were they were difficult years for the population, and especially, you know, you started to see arrive some volunteering, others by force. But, no they didn’t turn anyone away.
ALEX: So, I wanted to ask what I remember when you left right there or 12 years or 11 years. And [Shmuel?] wasn’t born yet. So, now that I’m an adult I realize what it must have been to leave an office, a name, in the middle of working, right? Somebody who had a job security! To close everything up and start from scratch! It must have been a very important decision, then, to make. And, especially, like you said, nobody was telling you to go. And, correct me if I’m wrong, but you arrived to build in Tel Aviv, right? Was that your first project?
ABRAHAM: Yes, when we decided to go there, my office was filled with work. And, to start with, the first two years, I would spend one month in Israel, and two months in Mexico. One month, two months. One month, two months.
ALEX: Wow! To have to cross the ocean every month!
ABRAHAHM: Yeah, I knew all the all the airlines!
ALEX: And you didn’t get any points!
ABRAHAM: No! Those sons of b****** didn’t give me anything!
ALEX: You could have flown up to Pluto if you want to!
ABRAHAM: Because we didn’t really make a lot of noise in Mexico… [some dialogue not recorded here…PABLO CHECK??] And he belonged to the… And, when he heard or found out that I was coming; I thought of sabbatical year. First, I wanted to explore the country. I’m going to see it. I’m going to not work. And then he said, “Oh, we’ve got a sporting center in Israel that we want to build.” And they built it with the idea that there would be a small group that would take turns every 6 months, then 6 months the other. And they said, “Hey this job, you help us with the big kind of thorn in our side that we have.” And I said, “No, no, no, sabbatical year!” And, they said,” No no, no it’s just a small project very small! Very small. No worries! And you’ll know what all things are like.” So, I said, “Ok, sure”. At first, initially it gave me a lot of support and a lot of help, because thanks to this project, I was able to know the conditions in which you would build in Israel.
And, after we built the hotel, part of it was already built, so really it was that just the installation of the of the sport parts, they already built that. But there was a project of building a kind of hotel that were the units could be sold to Mexicans. And, we built, I think, 75 brigades that were all sold. All of them, yeah. Afterwards, we passed time, and I was given the opportunity to kind of organize and see how things were done; how to build, how to work with publicists, and architects and all that stuff. So, I came back, we started, we built a lot of projects here in Israel. It was relatively…
ALEX: You already had a job as soon as you arrived?
ABRAHAM: Yes. The first year was very easy. And for the kids. The kids the second year..
ALEX: Your brother who was an engineer here, oh, Meir, Trufalin came to work as an associate, as your associate in Israel and the constructions in Mexico, were you the only one there at work there?
ABRAHAM: I wanted to leave the office working in Mexico. Because at the time my sister had married with a gentleman from Israel, and worked with us in Mexico. And, I had this gentleman, Tomas Bayer, architect in Mexico. And I told him, “Look gentlemen, I can sell the office and leave it at that, right?” And I said, “If you’re interested, I can leave the office open; helping out. I’m not going to ask you anything else. Just you know you’re going to be successful, you’re going to be able to get organized, and you’re going to win money.” It’s sad to leave it all by itself. And, they ran into the ground in two years; no in less than that; in a year, because nobody could agree. Everyone felt more important than the other. And that’s how the company ended up in Mexico.
ALEX: Uncle, I want to ask a final question. So, now you can speak 35 years of living in Israel, which is basically a lifetime; a generation. You know you have children, you have grandchildren. What/how do you see the Israel that you arrived in during the (19)70’s, and the one that you see in 2006; in retrospective. In terms of your decision to leave; of seeing your children grow, and your grandchildren grow?
ABRAHAM: When we begin to think in Mexico about leaving to Israel many/much of the importance we saw (was) in the creation of the family. So, our children–we wanted to really raise them in a truly Jewish area, even though we had sort of, that was something, you know, that the Chelminsky family wasn’t exactly a lighthouse of Judaism in Mexico, by (with) the exception of our grandfather. But, many of us felt that Judaism had a special kind of value. Not just for us, but for a Jewish state. You know that “giguer” ?? center.. I’ve always thought that one of the strongest problems to the Jewish problem was the lack of a state. That was kind of the center at which you could receive everyone. And no matter. Judaism makes itself, every time, more kind of apathetic in the outside communities. And, in Israel and it stays alive and becomes more intense every time. And, so you know we arrive to Israel and we see it grow. We grew alongside our daughters. Unfortunately, they suffered a little bit with the change, but they adapted very quickly, and they became Israelis much more than we did. And, the country has progressed tremendously in all of its aspects; in the Jewish sense, in..
TALKING TO HIS AUNT TZILLA:
ALEX: No, no worries, Aunt. [TALKING TO ABRHAHAM’S WIFE????] This is very valuable, no worries. Yes, speak about your 80 years and how you see it.
ALEX? There’s been a problem that has made us think about things very recently. Well, let me say it this way. One time that I spoke with [Abraham?] It was on the eve of his wedding, or of his anniversary, or of his wedding or of your birthday that he was.. And, he told me that you started to kind of look at the retrospective of your decision to leave; your 30 years in Israel; what it would have been like in Mexico. You definitely had a; it was a very a fork in the path that no other member of the family; that none of your cousins; that your siblings; none of them took. You decided to take the start on that; and to go to live there, even though there was no reason. Like many, you know, you weren’t escaping to Israel, you weren’t leaving your country expelled. You, in the most pure sense of Zionism, of wanting to create your family here. And that’s what I was really interested about. You having seen this decision.
ABRAHAM/TZILLA: No, I am plainly convinced and happy/satisfied with what we’ve done. Although, maybe there’s a little bit of. Not even just because of the Mexico thing, but a little bit of connected with my family. Because, you know that when I left my family lived you know your mother was here. I got tied to the direction to the family. And, they didn’t become opposed to my leaving, but I think they did feel a little kind of left behind, or a little bit hurt, I think, by the lack of a family direction in the family. And maybe here and there but, you know, how do I say, we’ve created how many new families in Israel. We are very happy, actually, and convinced that this was the right path that we took. And, that (now)? we would have wanted others to take it. Because, at the end of the day, life is; I wouldn’t say it was easier but, it doesn’t give you the sense of being Jewish with the values of Judaism.
And, I’m very convinced that Judaism is a philosophy; very important in this world. After everything, those religions that have popped up: Christianity, Islam; they’re based completely in Judaism. You know Christianity, first off, right? Even though without Judaism there’s nothing to teach! Islam, as I heard it once in a conference, is Judaism translated in Arabic and almost frozen for a thousand years, right? Keeping all these different things that could be done because it was in that place. Just like us, who moved across the world, right, that we changed a lot of things it based on where we are or the setting in which we’re in. And I think that Judaism still lots of things to teach. Right in the moral/ethical aspects of the world. They haven’t assimilated the religions; the other religions haven’t assimilated what it means; Moral and ethic in its own religion and we do have that a lot to teach and to show the others. So, I am very hopeful that the next generations will manage it.
ALEX: Let me ask you another thing, aunt. You spent the same 35 years.
TZILLA: Well, yes, sometimes I ask what my family would have been like if..
ALEX: Can I film you? You look very well no worries!
TZILLA: So, sometimes I wonder it would have been my family if we’d stayed in Mexico. And, for me it was very important and this is one of the values I really tried to get my children to have, was culture. For me it was so important. For example, in my family you never discussed.. the topic was where he was going but to doubt? Now there was also no doubt that he was going to go to the army, not of liked him I leaving or not leaving? When you know that is integral part.
When we got to Israel they all wanted to go to the army. Some of them it was easier some it was harder, but of the four, they all went into the army. Hard, easy they all did it. There were two elements, right? Army and culture, and they integrated into both of them-meaning that like both of them worked. And you know I wonder, how would it have been like as a family with our values with the way they grow up, if we had stayed in Mexico. And sometimes I don’t think we would have been very strong, or very different. I don’t think they would have been very different. I think that Israel gave them a lot. I see my children in the way that they are, younger, because they’ve done really well the four of them. Not just economically, but in values and culture and all those things that you want your kids to have.
I don’t want to say it wasn’t easy; it was very hard. In the beginning was very hard. For me, neither for Abraham, neither for the children because any process of getting integrated is hard. But even so, I want to say that it was an example of a good….
Shmunik and Emil didn’t have any trouble. Emil didn’t know how to read in Spanish. So, from the get-go. No, problems right. Mannie, Haddie, they arrived from here, it was a little bit more difficult. She arrived in first grade and she had to enter second grade. And, Dani, she was in kinder. It wasn’t easy, even a little bit more for Dania. It definitely had to do with the character of all of them. It wasn’t easy, maybe a little bit more for Dani. Anita, it took a little bit longer but even though she gets angry that we cut off her roots. I don’t know what roots she had in Mexico. I think she might have met a young Mexican gentleman, or something else that she liked. She talks about the culture and I don’t know what interest there was. I think she would have had it with any Mexican Jew. She said she didn’t have it.
Mexican integration. Imagine that; they gave me the chance to be a cultural attache to the embassy. I was an example of the Mexican integration, and I was in Israel! So, you know it kind of absurd, right, the dichotomy that wasn’t…. What I see my family today and I want to say that doing a retrospective like the poem said, I think things went well. I think we had an economically good life. Because, also the position that Abraham arrived with gave him a lot of opportunities that otherwise we wouldn’t have had. And, you know it was very important. But, we kind of integrated with the crème de la crème. Right?
We saw the beautiful Israel. We saw interesting people. We saw important people. The cultural thing; we were very involved, and we kept being involved. It gave us a lot of things and perspectives, and interests. It was a very nice life. I think Mexico would have probably been the same; I don’t know. I think it would have been very difficult because the cultural kind of aspect of the country would give you; it would be hard to find in other places; even advanced countries. The cultural things; we were in the cusp, but the important part to give to my family was how my family got integrated. My daughters are Israeli. When they come to Mexico they come as tourists. They see what they want to see, and what they don’t want. But, they are here as tourists. They say that they wouldn’t have seen themselves integrated here. Also, though, I think that in many ways, they see how they could have been by seeing their cousins. It’s an idea of what their lives would be like; their wedding their job; their daily life.
ALEX: I don’t think it would have been that different, right?
TZILLA/ABRAHAM? [WHO’S TALKING???] If you will let me add something very quickly. I don’t see that having stayed here. Personally, I don’t think I could have had a cultural integration as intense as with Judaism. And, I wouldn’t even say about Israel, that I would have with Israel. Because me, 20 years ago or more. The country Israel, right from the start of its population, from in all the levels, the opportunity of integrating so profoundly to its culture. The universities in Israel are open to all the population; for example, right to all people who are retired, they have a place not to be sitting down waiting for time to pass, but of, actually, getting something. Differences in education and all these things right. In the same country itself it has a… When you pass by it all and kind of bring it to the history of what it was the Jewish people in that, country it fills you with lot of kind of different feelings in your soul, and that’s very important!
I mean, obviously, you can build work, but there’s a lot of cultural aspects here that you know; cinema, movie, universities. Universities here have an advantage that you are inside of the city, and so all the all the people can go to classes, conference, exhibits. All that the students can do. And, the students see us as a natural part of the universities. You know the old people walk into the classes and listen to all the conferences. And, just like that as people come from outside and conference people you know it’s also open to anyone who wants to use it.
ALEX?: Here, [Mexico?] I don’t see myself growing up. I would like to know if I wanted to say, for example, to like stop work for 10 or 5 years what I have to do? But that’s something very important. And it’s why a lot of people who arrive, like your daughter, that find themselves in Israel you know so much that’s like it’s attractive to them because you have something to do! You have someplace to visit, something participate in; donate your time and effort to. I don’t see it here in Mexico. And, Israel needs so many things, that it gives so many things. Whatever, you know, just being there is something that you can get; like learning, teaching.
People, you know, from the army they arrive and you know the Mexican Army that is a terrible thing, but over there, people thought that little by little right after many years of sacrifice, of so many years of war and terrorism, the youth was going to get bored, or decline to participate in that activity of defense or co-operation with the state. And, you see the new youth; the new youth says, you know, “the next year I am going to the army”. They don’t say “Ah, Why do I have to go…”. They say, “No, it has to be the army, what will I choose?” [meaning speciality]. And, finally when you arrive, they give you chances, you know of activities of all these different things that you can do, right, like fighting, flying; all these many things. And, none of these people fight, or get annoyed, or angry. [
ALEX: Yeah, I know that Hades child, yeah he’s doing these parachute free-falling exercises. It doesn’t sound very relaxed but he is he the first Chelminski to be doing something like that.
ABRAHAM: Yeah, front line. He was volunteer in front lines and so you know they will turn to the side that’s what the soldiers to pass.
ALEX: Okay, okay so thank you again so much.
ABRAHAM: So, what are you going to do with this?
ALEX: So, I am, what I’m doing with my dad; I put it in a few CD’s, and I gave it to people who were interested.
ABRAHAM: So, what are you going to do in the long term with all this material?
ALEX: I don’t yet. What I do know is that I don’t want to lose it!
Time may pass, but memory remains.
In silence, we hear their voices.
In remembrance, we find meaning.